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tv   Book Discussion on Cheated  CSPAN  April 10, 2015 5:13am-6:14am EDT

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want the doctor to tell you what your temperature was you. don't want him to say i'll let you know six months from now and i'll let you know but it will just be comparing you to other people. and not you in particular. something like that. but if a teacher just says -- learns the child is a 4-3, 2 1 that's not accountability and there's no transparency because you can't -- they don't want to release the questions, and i think the reason they don't want to release them is because if they did people would be picking them apart and saying, this is ridiculous. there are two right answer. there's no right answer. the question is misleading. and in fact, i think that i recently read some of the testmakers are saying it's actually the park test which new york may be testing -- may be taking. the park test the instructions say they're going to have answers that are plausible but incorrect. that means they're going to be tricky and deceptive, and the really thoughtful child may
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ponder and ponder and choose the plausible answer that thismaker considers incorrect, but where you could probably have a very good discussion about what really is the right answer. and the fact is the standardized test is not a good form of accountability, there is only one purpose to standardized testing, it's to say we don't trust teachers. the teachers' judgments are not worthy, because i think back to before the era of standardized testing -- we have always had a little built but never high stakes. the idea was you could trust teachers'. if you wanted to know how the student was doing, you would go in and ask the teacher elm teacher knows i if the child can read. they see the child every day. why would you expect the test to tell you more than the teacher knows? the fact is we already havelet odd conditionability -- accountability today means punish: we know what we need to
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know through nape. nape does the sampling tests, releases results, in reading and math, for every state, every other year. so if you want to compare missouri to oklahoma or mississippi to massachusetts it's there in nape. you don't need to do all this individual student testing to find out. nape disaggregates the scores by race gender english language learners disability et cetera. we don't need additional tests to find out what we already fro knock nape, and nape will tell us the kid's come from advantaged homes have higher scores than the kids who live in poverty. this is nothing new. why do we need to keep doing it. >> speaking of that issue one of the things that people will say to disparage the movement against standardized testing will say it's something that has taken hold among certain type of parents, prodominantly white, middle class parents, not
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working class parents and not parents of color. what do you say to that? >> the first thing i would say, remind people of arnie duncan making that very argument, saying that those who are against the common core testing are white suburban moms, managing to basically dispager -- disparage everybody in the movement. look at this panel. look at who wrote for this book. and right up here are three people of color that are helping to lead this movement. right? and there's many other leaders of color that i think -- first off, we need to recognize. people like karen lewis in chicago, who are fighting back. [applause] so there's an important leadership of color that is helping to lead this movement i also think that it is true thattedit needs to deepen and broaden its roots in communities of color as well, and i think
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it's important for the opt out movement the boycott movement, to understand the role that these tests play in maintaining institutional racism and take up this fight as an antiracist struggle. i you've know the history of standardized testing, you know these tests first entered the public schools through the eugenics movement. openly proud white supremacists who wanted to show that black people were beyond civilization, and so people like carl bringham from princeton who designeds the s.a.t. tests was one of the most famous eugenicists in the nation, and when you understand these tests came out of that, what sense does it make that these tests are the key to closing the achievement gap like we hear in the rhetoric from the corporate education reformers? and so our movement against high-stakes testing needs to take up explicitly an antiracist
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struggle that will broaden the movements to other communities communities and that mind joining the "black lives matter" and we also want an education fit for our kids that is culturally relevant and antiracist. [applause] >> is it okay if i just say something real quick about that. >> go ahead. >> it is important to recognize, i've spoken to a lot of parents of color, when we did our campaign our school is at least half latino and african-american. if not more actually. and a good number of those people also recent immigrants who don't speak english and so in some ways it was about breaking through the mythology built up around the tests that says here is your ticket to a
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fair playing field. that's how it is put out there. that's what it is. but in fact it is the complete opposite, and i think really exposing that for what it is and saying, you know what? when they say, here's the standard your child to hit you should hit it but we're not going to support you or your teachers in helping your child to get there. your child came to the united states not speaking english. this is for high school students this exempt eight months later they're expected to take a test, reading in english. full paragraphs, comprehension you know to not unfair. that's downright abusive. what are you kids who can't actually comprehend what is printed? imagine if you had to go and take a test in vietnamese. i'm sure that all of us would -- maybe except me -- would fail.
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really exposing how the testmakers and the whole culture around testing has been able to steal the language of our civil rights movement and say this is going to help end racism. no it's the opposite. it's going to help entrench it. that's why we really have to take a stand against and it expose it for what it is. [applause] >> final question. one theme in the book is the transformative nature of the experience of going through a boycott, that at garfield castlebridge issue around the country peopled find themselves and their communities and schools transformed by the process of this and dianne, know you speak everywhere and have a feel for the movement nationally. what is happening to people who take this leap, who decide to challenge these tests? >> i'm sure it must be
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incredibly empowering, and i think that -- i'm knock the person to answer this because i've never boycotted a test nor led a boycott, but i encourage people to opt out. and i have to add in terms of the last discussion, part of the challenge of this monolith we face the power is that 19 civil rights groups signed a joint statement endorsing annual high-stakes testing and asking that it be retained in the new version of "no child left behind," and i communicate -- i had an exchange with people at the naacp legal defense fund and i totally don't understand why 19 groups did this. i could make guesses but they wouldn't be informed guests. its just shows -- guesses but it shows the importance of building the movement from below. even the people who run these organizations are so far remote from what is happening in
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schools and families and children, that it is -- the power has to be in the hands of parents and teachers and students, because that's where the change is going to come from. >> really quickly, one thing we found out in organizing with the parents at my school is that when i started asking parents, what do you want for your child's education? how do you think they would learn best? there was a little bit of debate. a lot of parents came from a fairly traditional or industrial model of schooling themselves and so we're a little bit maybe unsure if this more free form kind of play would be the best thing. but we had discussions about it and we really tried to hash it out. and one of the things that i think became clear was i said
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look at the models of the best education that we have in this country, which you have to pay for, let's be honest, and who sends their kids to those schools? and why do they send those kids to their those schools? they don't take the tests. they don't even worry about it. you go to a tour -- and i did this. i went to some tours for private schools inside new york city and one of the first things they say as a selling point is you know common core standardized state tests we don't do them. so i think we started to say to our parents, if it's good enough for arnie duncan or whomever president obama, maybe it's got enough for our kids too. it's what we deserve. [applause] >> i just want to speak to the question of the transformative nature of the struggle. i think garfield high school is a really exciting place to teach
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because of the courage of the teachers there that transformed the culture and that collective refusal emboldened an entire staff. so this year the superintendent announced we were going to lose a teacher. they were going cut a teacher at garfield high school nine weeks into the school year, right after kid have already done -- put all the work into a class. it was going leave 150 students without a class, and some of those students needed that class to graduate. so it would put their graduation in jeopardy. and we held a staff meeting to figure out what to do about this problem, and i said, we got to do something about this. we should go and rally up the school board and tell them about how we can't lose this teacher and another teacher said that's not going to do anything. let's just walk out. oh, yeah. that's a good idea. and the entire building emptied
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of all the students and teachers who said this is outrageous. we're not going to stand for this. and they said, oh yeah just kidding. we weren't planning on doing that. we saved our teacher and the black student union at garfield now is just won the city's human rights award for leading a march -- first marching to the precinct demanding that black lives matter, and then leading a walkout the day after there was no indictment of darren wilson and they're becoming leaders not just at the school but for the entire city, and defining what black lives matter means and it's all part of the growing struggle. and i want to say one last thing about the transformative nature of these struggles. i want to just end by reading a quick passage. there's a chapter in here you should not miss which is by a
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young woman named amber cudlow who wasn't to a school here in new york state, and she was the school's valedictorian and she -- because she had the best grades and the highest test scores she was told by the principal she had to give the graduation speech for the school, and she said, absolutely not. i don't have anything to say. i'm not a good public speaker. i'm not going to give the speech. and the principal said, it's not that you don't have to it's just you would be bringing shame to your family and the whole school for breaking our tradition of having the valedictorian -- finally, he basically forces her to give a speech. at the graduation. and so i printed her speech in the book, and she titled the speech -- this is in the program handed out to everyone in the audience. she title he speech, "51a45767.
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the feign number of the state representative pushing the high stakes testing on the -- right? and then since she had to give the speech, here's a quick excerpt from what he said. she said: as for the argument that these assessments are challenging our students more sure, that's true. it's a challenge to fit the same amount of material into one year with more exams. it's challenge to memorize loads of facts and time for the next team. it's also a challenge to eat other teaspoon of cinnamon in one bite without choke 'but what are you really play-ing? at this point i'd like to throw a slightly relevant quote by a famous person into the mix to make my speech seem more legitimate. that appears to be how these things work. so albert einstein once said everyone is a genius but if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree it will live its whole life believing it is
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stupid. i we can't judge someone's intelligence by how well he does in a small group of isolated classes. everyone learned differently so education is not something that can be successfully standardized. anyway, theirs why i tried so hard to get out of this speech. not because i don't respect all of you. i do. it's just that val rick tier -- valedictorian is a label and i don't like what it stands for. i'm not the parteddest person in theclass i'm good at memorizing things but that's not to use outside of the standardized world outfield high school, and i'm pretty sure a lot of you have been more successful than i was unless your standard nor judging success is a scantron sheet. [applause] to me those words were
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particularly meaningful as somebody who pent my whole life being humiliated by these tests, who i mutate wasn't intelligent for most of my life, and to see someone who aced this and knew that this was a scam meant a lot to me, and you can see how this -- these struggles are transforming people all over the country, and i think it's time to get on the right side of history, and help build this movement. [applause] >> another round of applause to our panelists. thank you for coming out. please pick up a copy on the way out and sign the signup sheet. thankas.
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good evening. i am not here because i'm a long-time north carolinaan, i'm not here because i'm an expert on the specific subject at hand. i'm here because of the heritage that these folks represent and the tradition that their hard work and guts have come in the wake of. i'm here because the names i'm getting ready to say were basic to this state and that heritage is basic to this wonderful work, and truly wonderful work that jay smith and mary willingham have been doing on above of an institution that so many of us know and love and so many of us have been fearful were going down without a peep. in the names, frank porter graham and terry sanford, and bill fraty. all of whom believed that which
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h the major point of an institution us to serve the idea within it. not enough to salute when you went by the building. you had to salute what it meant. i got here because of bill friday because we worked together on the night commission on intercollegiate athletics which the foundation i temporarily ran had financed and i said, i don't know what i'm going to do when i retire. some said, come to chapel hill. and i said you got it, and i came. i it was wonderful to be in place that had been so admired for so long. then one day he said to me, as we were worried about the meeting of higher a big-time coach, who immediately had discovered that to his surprise, of course that what happened to him before was happening to him here which was some of this outlying adjunct assistants had
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been doing funny things with both players and their access to money. and he said you know, said bill friday, i just was talking to a young woman who is here at the university who seems to know some things which are very disturbing if true. and i told her, well, i can't do too much to help but go over and talk to the folks at south building, that is to say, the administration building. it was mary willingham. i did not think a great deal about that except i figured bill friday was telling me, it must have some substance. i was already worried as so many of us were, about the indications without much proof that not all was well. i also as a sort of member of the faculty, would go from time to time to the meeting of the faculty council because, among other things, it is a way to
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find out or should be, what is the heart of the academic enterprise's thinking as well as the administration. and there i discovered one thing that was going on was, if your name was jeff smith and you got up and said, prophetic things about sports you might as well have been an immediate pariah because you were. and the one thing i can tell you about when jeff spoke was that people turned their heads not to listen but to somehow or other try by proving by not listening that what he was saying would go away. these were not partners at this particular moment except they were aiming for the same final end. jeff smith and mary willingham and that is that kids should be educated no matter what they were called, and the university
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should face up to that which it failed to do in a which which would restore the integrity which was increasingly obvious had been impinged upon by interests in creating a certain kind of sports program. i have to tell you i've been in public life in one way or another a long time. i was shocked to discover just how incredibly -- in fact disgustingly -- incapable leadership was in the university system of doing what had to be done. step up to the plate, say, we messed up and we're going to clean it up. there were -- discovered how little the university wanted to talk about that which was obvious. there were a lot of people in the business of news who discovered that like -- i'll make up a name -- richard nixon would you would rather want to
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pretend the press is the enemy as opposed to what had been done to the enemy and it took a long time for this town do itself. the process was i had the great good fortune because i got madder and madder because i was here, because i believed so much in the place in which i had not grown up. i got the opportunity to get to know jeff and mary. now, i've never actually been involved with something in which a truly bad situation was not only confronted but those who were either, as with mary, persecuted out of existence by a man who best can be described as -- i won't do it -- a bully in academic guise, or ever, who was being essentially -- their day came with such stunning clarity. and that which they had been
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warning of or claiming for some while, was now validated by the university's own money. not because that one report finished the story, but because it made it impossible to pretend the story was a lie. in fact it made it impossible to ignore that anymore high places had been lying at the university ins' of them could not -- some of them could not stop lying even then. that's enough. the book speaks for itself. i've already told by mary i could not go 20 minutes, and i think i already have. i just want to say, one, it's a good read. two it's a scary read if you care about north carolina. and by that i mean the state as well as the university. and three it's a remainder that edmund burke is correct, the triumph over evil is a result of the silence of the good. faculty at unc was largely
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within the category of the silent of the lambs. and the administration was largely in the category of if i just close my eyes ill witness go away. this -- it will go away. this book wellte tell you how it might be kept from happening again, but i cannot tell you how proud i am of both of them, as indeed frank porter graham and terry sanford and bill friday would have been of them. so it's a great pleasure for me to introduce both of them. [applause] >> thank you all for coming tonight. it's starting to rain. >> sometimes we change our names just because we like to do that because we don't want to people
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to know who we are, but i still am mary and this is -- i've only known him as jay, but have you have changed your name recently. is that true? >> well, professor smith, as we like to say. >> well, this book is, of course, about the unc scandal, the particular the unc scandal what happened at chapel hill and how and why our administrative and faculty leadership failed to provide the proper leadership for so long, between 2010 and at least 2014. so you'll find the details about unc in this book. but really we think that the book is about something greater, larger, than the unc scandal itself because the unc scandal, we believe, is emblematic of all that is wrong with big-time college sports. this become is about how a prestigious academic institution
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condition cooperate -- co-opted by the big-time'm athletic machine and how the co-oping happens can, how pervasive the moral rot becomes, how everybody affected by it and learns to stay silent to look the other way, or to actively facilitate the maintenance of the system. you know the particulars. at least i'm assuming that most of you know a lot of the particulars about the actual course scam, which was at the center of this particular manifestation of academic fraud. it occurred, at least the center of gravity for the fraud occurred in a single department tragically the department of african-american studies where a group of independent study coreses was developed and bogus
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lecture courses that functioned as independent studies, and used those courses as, as far as we're concerned, vehicles of eligibility. eligibility for athletes who needed a break or who were not particularly strong students, or weren't inclined to do university work, or for whatever rope maybe they were con cussed maybe they were injured, they needed the team. debbie and julia found them the time they needed by passing them through these particular courses. but it's important to point out as we do in the book, that department was not the only department that was involved in bending or lowering or ignoring academic standards. there were plenty of other fact and i planety of other departments who bent to the pressures that are invariably exerted by an athletic enterprise at a big-time sport
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university. courses and faculty, particular factually and philosophy and geography and french and a few other places offered courses that were essentially functioned as free rides for athletes. and they used that slate of courses to keep these athletes on track academically, and on the field, where they're coach kadzhaya their physical labors. we lad hoped actually to show you couple of graphics that would illustrate how this worked for individual athletes. it turns out they're indecipherable when we put them on the screen so we won't use them but we'll talk briefly about a couple of individuals who show how the system worked, how it functioned, how drastic counselors and the support program at unc exploited these loopholes for the purposes we have already mentioned. and the first of these individuals is julius peppers.
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one of the most famous throw its in unc history, who transcript lucky for us, is already public so we can talk about that. are there any nc state fans in the room? [laughter] >> yes. >> thank you. for your help. >> in addition to acknowledging dan cane should have said something about pack pride in our acknowledgment. the pack pride fan forum, these are the people who discovered this phantom transcript apparently anonymous transcript was actually julius peppers' transcript. it's really indecipherable on the screen. tend of his third semester necessary residence at unc his gpa was 1.57. >> he was rocking then.
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>> not doing too well. and you need to have a 1.75gpa to be eligible for athletic participation for the upcoming season. so what the academic counselors and the aspsa did at unc was route him to 11fm classes out of his next 17 courses and at least eight of those 11 courses were paper classes. and guess what? he did really well. he did real request well in those classes, and he -- >> he was a good paper writer. >> certainly a good paper class performer at the very least. got his gpa where it needed to be. this happened several times in the course of his career, very checkered career. he would fall below the eligible bar ask then get bested over by take these paper classes. another even more disturbing case perhaps arguably even
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more disturbing, occurred about three or four yeared later, when one of the players we identify by the alias of reg, in chapter 7 of the book, founder himself with an even lower gpa after his first two september messsters at north carolina. a 1.5gpa. had done miserably in the fall semester, flunked english 100 basics in writing was facing an uphill climb. and the academic counselors the first summer after his first year in residence got really creative. they found an easy mathclass for him to get through. he already failed one math class and had it removed from his transcript retroactively removed. the fawn are found him an easy math class a paper class and most brilliantly, they persuaded debby crowder to schedule a two
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independent hour study. independent studies are three-hour course like every other course. the problem with reg was that he needed lots of hours and lots of high grades but couldn't register for nine hours because if he had done that he needed the approval of a dean. and they didn't want deans looking. so, they scheduled a two-hour independent study course for reg instead of three and guess what? he rocked it. he got an a-minus in that course. and then he was boosted up over the eligibility bar, was on the field in the fall. never graduated, however and never played in the nfl, and the reg case is much more egregious as far as we're concerned than julius puppers because at least he made it to the nfl-got something out of the experience but poor reg representative of so many athletes, got nothing. he got no education he got
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no -- get get his name called on draft day. he got nothing. and his experience as far as we're concerned, typifies the experience of profit sport or revenue sport athletes basketball and football players, at unc and across the country. what happened at unc was egregious, singular, awful, but things like what happened at unc happen everywhere because all of thieves athletes are working under the same pressures they're working their 50-hour weeks at their sports trying to make they're way in a classroom often at universities where they're not really prepared to do the work, and so friendly faculty and academic counselors find ways to keep them afloat. but all the while they learn that their academic experience, intellectual interests and so on are subordinated in the athletic demands of the athletic machine and that's something that mary witnessed first hand in her
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seven years in the academic support program. >> we called it schedule engineering and we were really good at it. so we would play a math game with how many credits the young folksed, men mostly in basketball and football needed to be eligible what the gpa they had was, what they needed and so it was just this game of schedule engineering and eligibility and it really wasn't about an education at all. it was about being an athlete being an athlete first and maybe being a student maybe, second third or fourth. and that's how the system is here at carolina and at schools d-1 schools in particular across the country, and we know now here hearing from some people who are getting in this conversation nationally, even the athletic director from notre dame has joined the conversation this week, saying we have to talk about really semi pro, these profit sport athletes in basketball and football, who are watching right now on tv during
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march madnessor, you have to ask yourselves, while they're away from 15-week semester for many weeks during this particular semester but their mandated by the ncaa and the member institutions to be enrolled in full-time classes so 12 hours. you have to ask yourselves could we do senate could we actually do 12 hours of academics and the grueling schedule they have? and it is grueling. we have 18 to 22-year-olds who -- i'm looking around the room and thinking maybe some of you had or have had children in this age, but what we do is we wring bring them into south carolina in the second summer session before their first year and we put them into this type of boot camp where they're to take classes and they're to start their athletic training. so they're lifting, dealing with the nutrition folks, some of them we learned at the
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university of tennessee a couple of weeks ago when we visited, are being awoken at 2:00 in the morning to east three peanut butter and jelliy sandwiches because they're supposed to gain weight. so we're doing a lot of work with these young men particularly football players, right to get them ready to play immediately, n the first season in the fall. and they're not really getting a college experience, because really you're supposed to good to college to do what? get to know the campus get to know where the parties are get to know what the -- who is a good professor, get to know who your friends are going to be not to be going from 5:00 in the morning where you might be running stadium stairs to lifting to a few classes to grab something to eat to watch film, to go to practice to go to study hall, and it goes on and on and on. long days. they're exhausted. they're tired. it's grueling.
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but they do it because they love their sport and they do it because for many many years they've been told that they're the guy. or they're the gal when it comes to womens sports like womens basketball, but for the most part when we talk about athletes we're talking about basketball and football players profit sport athletes, although the book touches on olympic sports as well but these two sports at cared pay for the 26 other sports. so we have to look -- now we hear about separating this out because it's all different and yet the ncaa lumps into it one category of college sports. >> actually, before -- we're going to read an interesting page from the book if wonder if we should show them a few figures. >> absolutely. >> interesting to show.
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you will find these numbers in the book. but what is really interesting about this particular lineup of 18 athletes who took multiple paper classes, in the early 1990s, is -- you probably can't see them but if you study carefully the gpas they earned in regular courses, which you'll find here, other other courses, 194, 152 175, 2 pot 1 171 169, it's. you see that a lot of these guys had georgia pas under 2.0 or in parallel, at least. in danger of falling below 2-point0. then if you look how they were helped by the multiple courses they took with julius in the blue column, they're install the high 2s and low 3s so they're getting bs b-minuses,
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about-pluses, in the early 90s they stayed away from ayes generally some sort of b that julius and debby would hand out. but what happens, of course when you combine a bunch of low-performing courses with those higher performing courses it evens out in the end and you get your gpa above the threshold where it needs to be. so in the end, even i can't see this very well -- other gpa and other courses -- grades earned in other courses. you can see how the courses functioned, and what is so striking about this group of 18, these were the first 18 players who were sent to julius on more than one occasion, in other
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words, academic counselors realized he was handing out gifts, and they sent these players to him time and again to get those gifts and those gifts elevated the gpa to the places where they needed to be. here you see a little more strike leg the actual paper class advantage to the gpa. again, i realize you can't really see these very well, but the number of paper classes taken, and you can see one person -- one lucky soul got to take 18 paper classes. his are his gpa in other classes, 1 356. dismal. not eligible. had it not been for the paper classes which got his gpa back to a somewhat respectable 2.3, and that is -- this is just a sampling of what we came across in our perusal of course
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records. so the point is that these guys didn't get a real education. they were subordinated to the needs of the athletic program their teams, their coaches and their own athletic desires too, but they were effectively denied real educations. >> a lot of the problem starts at the front door where we admit students who -- athletes in particular who are not able to do the coursework. so we really set the system up, right, at the front door, for cheating, because what are we going to do with a guy who is reading at even the new provotes bill disagree, the national statistics for education tell us that our black males in particular only ten percent in this country as pathetic as that and is should be outraged -- are reading at agreed level at eighth grade. so the football and basketball players are coming to us not prepared for the academic rigor
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of college and that's true of many white males as well because their numbers aren't that much better. they're a little bit better. so we have a literacy crisis in this country, and we're not dealing with that. but that's really a separate issue, although it's connected to this. it's a k-12 problem with the public school system. meanwhile our post secondary institutions are bringing in athletes who do not meet admission standards at the time universities. at cared we have 30,000 applications and take 4,000 students so highly competitive. so we have some recommendations in the end of the book and there's some recommendations floating around congress now and in groups like the drake group and a new group across the country, if you're going bring these guys in, and women too but we talk about these two groups, profit sports, men, let's be honest, and meet them where they're at academically and bring them long and offer them a real education. if it attacked six years or
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eight years, whatever it's going to take,be but the contract the scholarship agreement says in exchange for your talent we'll provide you with a world class education, and what we can see across the country, because it's uss such great case study that's not happening. so the athletes are not getting paid not getting benefits and not getting a real education, so many of them are getting nothing, and yet we all enjoy watching them on game day as consumers of college sports. so we can talk about all of the carolina people and administration and the staff and the african-american studies department who are complicit in all of this, but we're all a little bit complicit in all of this. so we need to get into the conversation, have it changed. but there's a great example in the book of what it's like for an athlete who have this idea how controlled they are, in a profit sport, for example in football. there's a paragraph i'm going read and it kill mets as read
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specialist because i should have you reading to me so i can see what agreed level you're reading it's. a stark expression of this effort to control players' bodies and minds and command their loyalty to the machine is found in the locker room of the unc football team. as revealed in the documentary film, schooled, the price of college sports, and if you haven't seen this documentary, you really need to look it up. the coaching staff at cared uses players, nfl at aspiration as leverage. posted on a door in the locker room is an infantile -- see that's the word -- a word man -- sign the type of sign -- infantizing sign that identifies misbehaving individuals and reminds the rogues who their master is, attention, nfl scouts i will not discuss the following players. they are selfish, lazy and have no concept of team.
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they cannot help you win football games. can you believe that? can you believe that? the very existence of that sign makes a mockery of the oft repeated claim that college football players are students first. not only is it offensive that unc would allow the bullying and dim intimidation of aspiring professionals. coaches threaten to brand players in the you'ds of nfl scouts and prospective employers. does that seem wrong to anybody? not what college is supposed to be about. in the classroom we wouldn't make a list on the board of the students who are failing the test, who shouldn't get in to law school or shouldn't get into medical school, we would never do that. and yet these guys their hopes and dreams are shattered each and every day. it's such a controlled environment. and it's really an issue -- a civil rights issue, as taylor
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branch tells us it's a social justice issue, and we really hope that cheated can become part of the national conversation. it's about the unc scandal, yes but about the education of athletes and the future of big-time college sports and was a privilege for the write this book with jay smith, and it was privilege to take this journey with all of you and for the support i've gotten, and dan we can't have done it without you, and so many people in this room who made this happen. i think in the long run it's going really make a difference and we'll be on the right side of history. >> yes. >> so, we'd be happy to answer question. >> we loaf -- love to be stunned. >> thank -- we love to be stumped. [applause]
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>> you mentioned paper classes. that's where it has to start no question. these guys -- by the way to the coaches, the two coaches, they didn't know anything about this. apparently no questions asked. >> they all knew. they all knew and they all know. >> these poor young fellas are coming into this big university where such standards are demanded of them, and really they just -- their dream is the nba and the nfl and that is the only route they have to be seen by the scouts. >> that's right. >> it's my opinion that they should be another route to those two bodies. so they can get there and earn the money that they they're entitled to. i really believe that. >> two separate systems is what this gentleman is suggesting so the profit sports would have a different system semi pro type
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league, if you will and there's some talk about that. even the powers dish call them the power keg five because i think they'll blow this up. they're all fighting about what to do. who is going to get paid, how much they're going to get paid in the o'banon case has changed the future. there's an antitrust issue, very complicated, but in america, as jay says we solve complicated business deals every day. so we should be able to come up with a solution for this. >> baseball is a great example. >> that's right. absolutely. >> why we can't have that for football and basketball. >> i agree. >> we could but a lot of people are make money off the books these thieves guys and want to continue to make money. >> i'd be interested in hearing how the new chance lore -- chancellor treated you when you went into the meeting. i know how this whole thing -- i
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don't think he paid enough attention to it, and chancellor comes in and could have made herself look really good by thanking you and hiring you back into your position. could you speak to that? >> the gord of governors and more importantly the board of trustees are really in charge. i believe that be true. i don't know how much control she has in my opinion, that she is not -- that she is the face of the university at this point and it's the first female chancellor that we have had in 220 years. so it's exciting, but she was at the mediation, she made an appearance. she was trying to do the best she could. she had at the team of attorneys. i think she also would like to get this behind her and i really wish just like i had wished for chancellor holden i wish they had more support in leadership at the university from the board of trusteesees and
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the board of governors. again, big money, boosters, it's very complicated. so i think it's a system dish think we can't look at just the one person or focus on a person but it's the whole system. we just lost tom ross. president ross. so much repair work needs to be done. i don't think we can blame it all on her. >> heading in the wrong direction with president ross being forced out? >> we just -- [laughter] >> easier do mr. to say i wilt fulton dean would have behaved differently but i know the faculty should have behaved differently. this faculty should have been putting the heat on the administration and there's no discuss for it. >> that's why it was created. >> yes. >> how serious in all the scandals across the country, how many admissions directors or members of the admissions
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committee have been held accountable? how many athletic administrators or faculty members or academic administrators have been held accountable? how many have lost their jobs? the only ones i see losing their joins are coaches and academic support people. it's totally backwards. they can't -- if they're not admitted you're not going to have these problems. i worked at a university where many of the same kids were not admitted because of their transcripts. and i'm not going to name the university, but the were not admitted and we didn't have the same problems they have at carolina. nobody is held accountable in the upper levels. they're the ones hiring all the attorneys, and they're the ones that don't have to answer to those above them, the admissions committee, admissions director, at this particular school we had an admissions director that would not let them in period.
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>> that is true. >> absolutely. >> admissions director, the faculty, the committee that is in charge of special admits and the faculty athletic representative are under the radar. auto nc and every, they fly right under the radar and not held accountable. >> it's not going to change until that's done. anytime not one that says anybody that is marginal should not be admitted. i know of cases where one gentlemen gentleman i went to school with is now call doctor but he graduated as a minister. >> the first success story. this woman has question. >> i have a question. i agree with everything that's been said about k through 12 and the business solutions. i'm a duke grad so i'll disclose that. when a student comes to the school of business and they're prepared, they spend the whole -- i think it's a month to six weeks before school starts
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in a boot camp. if you have identified these people dish don't believe development admit are any different that the student-athletes. the private sector, if you're looking at a private school they have development admits and they're not nearly as qualified as the rest of the pool of applicants that get in. and so i think there are solutions, and i haven't read the book. i just picked it up. there are solutions that can help, and i don't think that it's anything radically different from what is already being done for development admit, for people in business school settings. have you looked at it at carolina to see if there's -- >> my experience -- when i came out of the athletic department in 2010 i went into the college of arts and sciences as an advicer and a learning specialist. i ended up as a graduation advicees, somebody thought it was a good idea to give me total access to all the records. mam that.
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i -- imagine that. i saw that the gap is much wider with athletes than it is with other students who come through maybe the community college or maybe nontraditional students but the gap in academic preparedness with our athletes, profit sport athletes for us, is much wider. my comment really is, we don't know all of this until we have transparency and disclosure you disclosed to us you were from duke. we never disclose what our athletes' transcripts look like because we hide behind frfa the law that says we need to protect that but we can defy reg and we can talk about reg and talk about his transcript and nobody knows who he is, and even better, if we have a pile of them we can say that. we can see that. so again, not to pick on my friend from notre dame but on a panel a few weeks ago he said at notre dame we don't have this
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problem. we graduate 98% of our football and basketball players and we do it right. and i said, you know what? i would love to believe that. i hope it's true. show me the transcripts. that's the only way that we're going to see if it's true or not. we'll see if students have been put in pass classes, clustered together, the same major, independent studies online classes. that's the only way to prove these young people are getting a real education we promised them. >> you're right. if we admit them and they're that far behind we have to mediate their deficiencies. >> however long it takes. >> i'm all for that. >> we are too. >> third row back. >> you mentioned before that both coaches took the fall or both coaches new what was going on in the scandal. why hasn't the basketball coach taken the fall here? >> i think he is playing a game right at the moment so we can't call him up right now ask him
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but i think that eventually we're going to stephen ncaa comps back in there's more coming and happening behind the scenes and i do believe that changes are coming. i certainly think that the ncaa has some rules that might be effective, and one of them is you should have known if you didn't know, and because you were in charge, and making a boat load of money off the backs of these young people. time will tell the story. but again we'll protect the brand and protect our money at all costs. that's what we do. >> and head coaches have given themselves plausible deniability by building in a bureaucratic layer of academic counselors who get kid registeredded in courses and declare majors and so on. so the coach can always say wasn't me. it was that layer of bureaucrats who answer to me and talk to me every day, but it's their fault,
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not mine. so it's plausible deniability. built right in. >> i have a comment and a question. one is that julius peppers didn't only play football, he was so gifted academically he played basketball as well. >> yes. >> yes. >> quite a scandal. >> and another specific that you may or hey not be able to respond to but i can remember rashad mccants announcing that being in the basketball program was like being in prison. i'm curious whether his transports have ever been public information? his one of the few players that's been made allegations and been vocal about his experience and there's been denial and coaches quoted him as not lying but he was just wrong. i guess there's a fine distinction there, but is there anything public about rashad mccants' actual transcripts?
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>> his transcripts were shown on espn outside the lines. so they have been made public. so we have all now seen his transcripts. and he is telling the truth, that he did take four paper classes and was on the dean's list in 2005, the spring. his transcript reflects that. and it also reflects he was failing most of his regular core classes. so he tells some great stories, and i think he is playing overseas right now but die believe we'll be hearing more from his and his stories and they'll be fascinating help has a beside reputation for being a character, but just like all of us once you sit down at the fable get to know us we're not exactly as we may seem, and he is certainly one of those people. >> you allude to one offed the great undiscussed seasonals within the scandal. the fact that jowlus peppers with his sub 2.0gp and an awful
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performance academically, the fact that after the firstee, the basketball coach decided it was a good idea to get him on the basketball teach fashion the athletic director allowed it, also did everybody else. this is a scandal. it should never have happened. how was this possible? >> that man had his hand up for a very long time. >> did you have chance to interview the players or maybe coaches, and if so, what do they say? >> well, who i worked with students in the athletic department for seven years so a lot of the stories and specialfully chapter seven and eight are from my own experience working with the young men and women i worked with while i was there. and in addition we did do some interviewing. we had some athletes we talked and some faculty and staff. we didn't talk to coaches. >> no, we didn't. >> we didn't talk to any coaches.


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